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Desperation - Windows Update!

Discussion in 'NEO Z83-4' started by klapa, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. klapa

    klapa Member

    I wonder if anyone here has an answer that can help me, as I'm about to give up on this Intel Minix.

    I use this as an entertainment center/player only and it had been working GREAT since I got it last May. I don't care about much else than ability to play 4k movies over HDMI and having an ethernet interface.

    The problem is that though I had the Windows Update service DISABLED - AND Cortana disabled - somehow the update service got turned on and since it would not properly play most movies.

    I restored completely from a flash drive I had made shortly after setting it up and thought things were OK - but the Update Service just KEEPS TURNING ITSELF BACK ON! Plus after the restore the time is totally wrong and driver for the WIFI is not working. I'm sure I can get the WIFI driver fixed up but the time sort of throws me off - it worked fine before. BIOS version is still 1.5. I had to load the latest Intel Graphics driver to even get the HDMI seen by the sound system.

    Looking on the internet this has apparently started happening to LOTS OF FOLKS beginning around November 2017.

    I just couldn't believe it tonight when I disabled that service and it just started right back up! I guess I can restore again without network, but I've got to find out what keeps turning the update back on.

    Any ideas out there? Anybody else having these problems?

    I hate to sound like a conspiracy nut but this really smacks of the Intel ME. (chip has Intel Graphics)
  2. klapa

    klapa Member

    Well - time for bed but I did at least salvage the thing for now without hosing everything again. I was even able to watch part of a movie!

    Apparently - when I did the system restore it DID NOT delete the update files it had downloaded and was trying to install. Before I had taken such a drastic measure I tried to delete the updates - but could not delete them all. I could see them listed but there was no "Uninstall" option. All the while the thing sat there for ~3-4 HOURS during the restore saying it was deleting old files - yet it left those! IMAGINE that............

    I was able to hold the thing off by disconnecting the network and pulling power. Had to restart twice to get back in where the update was on again. Turn it off - update gets turned on again! I then noticed way down the program list that a new PROGRAM had been installed - Windows Update Assistant!

    Before yet another restart I setup my firewall to MAC filter deny access to the internet for the Minix. THEN i could delete the updates. I'll keep it off the internet till I see whether the updates are turned on again with another restart - they did not turn on again after uninstalling the "Update Assistant".

    Maybe things will get back to normal when I disable Cortana - which I believe is another problem and at the very least a severe PITA.

    Else - it does not look good - I don't think any Linux yet works well enough for an entertainment PC. Maybe I could go to Windoze 8.1. This Win 10 with the privacy agreement required to sign for the update is definatly not where I am going.

    Intel, Microsoft, and Google - ya just can't get away from them and still use the internet or a TV.
  3. klapa

    klapa Member

    So...I fired up the thing this AM and was pleased to find that the Update service came up disabled - just as I'd left it.

    As I pretty much see resource eating hogs such as Cortana as "tits on a bull", I went through the "process" of disabling that. After that I was feeling lucky so I enabled the Minix MAC on my router.

    I dialed up a movie in Kodi and was checking it out when not 10 minutes later - BAM!! - I get a big blue dialog box from Windows 10 Update !!! So...CRAAPP!

    By this time I have Control Panel -> Services and Task Manager as Icons on my task bar so I bring up services and see update is on manual (triggered) again. I'm feeling pretty triggered too!

    So I kill the update service and ONCE AGAIN go to control panel and uninstall Windows 10 Update Assistant. I had also noticed in task manager that the "Management Console" was running - I killed that too. I also set anything having to do with "remote management" to disabled, along with the Windows search service.

    I will now reboot again - WITH outside internet enabled - and see what happens.

    Stay tuned for the next fun filled episode!
  4. klapa

    klapa Member

    I guess I am about to give up and just run this thing with no internet access, as regardless of what I turn off or uninstall it always want to update and nobody is talking as far as what to do to fix this.

    I though everything was going OK - had services up all day with updates and search disabled - still suddenly get "getting Windows ready - do not turn off your computer" when I try to restart.

    If I DID update - there is not enough disk space for the update.

    So this thing is unfortunately probably going to end up a total loss as the hardware is all intel and apparently it won't work as an entertainment machine (player) with anything but Windows.

    I did manage to turn it off with the power button and reboot and found all update settings I had disabled to still be disabled - so who knows what is hidden in the bowels of Windows.

    I just wish I could find something similar (low power - small - no fan) that runs Linux with enough power to play the higher definition movies.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  5. klapa

    klapa Member

    Again - are none of the Minix people going to answer this?

    Thjis is so lame - even when the update service in disabled state, and the Windows Up[date Assistant previously UNINSTALLED - if I leave the thing with access to the internet for an hour or so all of a sudden Update Assistant is back installing updates - EVEN WITH THE UPDATE SERVICE STILL DISABLED!

    Why is this happening now and what can be done to stop it? Anyone???
  6. MrReis

    MrReis New Member

    It's possible to delay and block Windows 10 updates without disabling services.

    If you set your Internet connection to be a "metered" connection, then Windows 10 does not automatically download and install "some" Windows updates. For a WIFI network Windows 10 Settings can be used to do this (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4028458/windows-metered-connections-in-windows-10). For a wired (Ethernet) network Windows 10 registry entries need to be added and edited (https://www.cnet.com/how-to/meter-your-ethernet-connection-in-windows-10/). I have a wired network connection and this works for me.

    Finally, Windows updates can be disabled using the Windows update troubleshooter that allows you to hide available updates which prevents them from being installed (https://www.guidingtech.com/48828/delay-disable-mandatory-updates-windows-10/). I guess this is useful for blocking the mandatory Windows updates that setting the network connection to "metered" doesn't prevent from being downloaded.

    Have a nice day!
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  7. Villa

    Villa Administrator Administrator

    For anyone who would like to know how to turn off the update service...

  8. lucca

    lucca New Member

    I can understand how maddening this is klapa; I feel a little hard-done-by myself as I wanted to try this unit as a PC. Great, I thought, it comes with Widows 10 - job done!

    However, what I would like to do is actually update the OS! Unfortunately I can't as there is not enough free space apparently.

    I never realised that with 30GB it would be so restrictive - two thirds seems to be required by the system, 5GB apps etc, temp files cleared leaving 3 GB and I need 4GB free! Limited usebility as a PC I feel.

    I have set the update option in Services to ' Disabled' and it seems to be holding though... ref MrReis and Villa.

    Wish you luck with your situation klapa...
  9. klapa

    klapa Member

    Thanks all - I will look at the links Villa posted. I had been using this without internet (MAC filtered) but would have videos freeze then later have a box appear wanting to update - this explains to me that my recent troubles were possibly due to update in the background eating up time slices.

    As mentioned I did restore from my original USB stick I made but still had the Windows Update Assistant keep reappearing - even after it was "uninstalled".

    When I had restored I did not select the "clean" option as I had read this takes a very long time.

    I have since restored again this time using the clean option and just leaving it to run overnight. I have since installed the Intel drivers and Kodi manually and verified operation with full surround by playing a local drive movie.

    So far it seems OK but it did before too. Maybe without the "clean" option the restore also keeps "updates in waiting".

    One thing is for sure - there is no unistalling the "Update Assistant" - and that will attempt to update the computer even with the update SERVICE turned off.

    I really don't want Windows 10 so I hope Linuxium can get a Linux flavor working that supports surround audio over hdmi port. I simply refuse to use this new generation software that robs your privacy - I would rather pay for something than I would succumb to this new attempt of control from these corporate giants that seek to monpolize the OS market and access to information.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  10. MrReis

    MrReis New Member

    Power to the People! Fight the bosses, not the boss` war.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  11. klapa

    klapa Member

    I have been doing fine since the "file cleaning" option new install from the USB drive I made originally- yet have not yet enabled internet access.

    I found this below - a recent post on a forum - that exactly describes my situation and the problems I was having:

    **********************************************************************
    Jake says

    December 21, 2017 at 6:45 am

    After a year without being interrupted by updates, suddenly, like William Todd (18 Dec 2017), I also found the Windows Update service to have been re-enabled (though without having connected to any ‘unmetered’ connection), after I unexpectedly saw “Configuring Updates” on boot-up. I disabled it again. Now today I see Windows Upgrade Assistant appearing modally over the screen (fortunately with an option to hide it, otherwise it would have rendered the computer unusable) saying it doesn’t have enough disk space (8Mb needed) to install “Important Security Updates”. The process was in a folder “C:\Windows10Upgrade” that was created on 14 Dec. And again, Windows Update service has been re-enabled.

    I killed the process, renamed that folder, and have changed the registry permissions so that I am the owner of and “Everyone” is denied all access to the key `HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\services\wuauserv`. Hopefully that will stop anything being able to re-enable the service, but I wonder about `ControlSet001`, `ControlSet002`, etc. Could these be swapped in and out so that the service becomes enabled because a different ‘control set’ is selected?

    ***********************************************************************

    Maybe those are the solutions if it happens again. I already setup the "take ownership" command in the context (right click) menu that I use to disable (move) Cortana.

    It is the Windows Creator Update that you must accept the new "privacy" terms - lack of privacy would be a better way to put it.

    All I want is a video player - and this little computer is the BEST for that especially for the money. If I could find a Linux that supports the audio over HDMI I would install that, but as far as I know none yet exist.
  12. klapa

    klapa Member

    So I did follow a the links posted above by Villa and MrReis and while I had seen/read some of them I did not really understand the difference in the Win 10 registry as compared to previous (Win 7) versions until reading one of those links. That difference IS the "ownership" aspect of various keys - now the computer administrator (YOU the person that PAID for it) does not necessarily have ready access to some of these keys.

    I also had not known about the "metered network connection" aspect, so I went through the process of modifying the registry to place the "metered" attribute on my ethernet connection. Using what I learned about the registry ownership I also managed to REMOVE any permission of the system to run the update service - the service no longer even appears in services.msc list.

    It IS a FACT - that this new Windows 10 Update (Upgrade?) Manager was attempting to download and install updates WITH THE UPDATE SERVICE DISABLED. I saw that and the person (people) in what I posted above had the same thing happen to them - all of this starting around the same time - beginning of November, 2017. I had disabled the update service when I first put my Minix in operation May, 2017 and never had a problem till I noticed video hesitations and finally update notifications around Thanksgiving holiday.

    Hopefully I am back where I need to be and can figure out a way to make a restorable image of my current state, instead of starting from scratch again.

    It is easy to see where this is going - soon all pretense of "choice" will be removed and whatever operating system you run will be DICTATED by the Intel-AMD-Microsoft-Google lock on technology.

    Which leads to a lock on free information access.
    Villa likes this.
  13. Joe Shuster

    Joe Shuster New Member

    I just stopped by this forum to see how the Z83-4 update to Windows 10 Fall Creators update is going. I had troubles installing the update with a desktop and laptop (lots of memory and disk). I didn't want to start on the Z83-4 without some sense of how others are doing. I eventually updated the desktop and laptop by using the "Download Windows 10" page from MS which includes an option to just download/install the update. Each machine downloaded 3+ gb, and then took 2+ hours to finish the update. There were a couple of rough edges to both updates, but two or three reboots seemed to shake things out.

    Here's what I used: <censored by forum software> . I disabled the Windows Update service while running this install so it doesn't try to compete with the manual upgrade.

    I don't know if this same recipe will work for the Z83-4, but I'm offering it as something that worked for me on other machines.

    Joe

    PS, arrg. The forum software won't let me post the link -- not enough hoops jumped through. The page is the same as the Windows page for creating the installation media. Maybe some blessed, privileged forum user can post that.
    #NiceWayToDiscourageForumParticipation
  14. skynet

    skynet Moderator Moderator

    The fall creator update could be installed on an 'empty' windows. You must uninstall every personal application before, then clean the cache to save space.
    I successfully installed it on a Z83-4 and this weekend on a N42C-4. It took some time but it's working fine!

    Sent with my S7 edge
  15. klapa

    klapa Member

    My difficulties were not that I could not install the update as much as it was that I could not prevent this service from forcing me to install it.

    It is simply ridiculous to assume that I must pay for something and then allow someone else to modify it whenever they choose under the assumption that "they know better than me".

    This update may indeed make Windows "more secure" yet maybe I myself wish to assume that awesome responsibility? My system runs just the way I want it to run - I don't want any "upgrades".

    What this is about is the FORCED relinquishment of one's privacy so their habits may be tracked and sold to the highest bidder - so you PAY for something that then makes the seller keep making more money. It reminds me of paying for cable that still shows advertisements - even while watching the show! Yet at least with the cable ONE IS ALLOWED TO TURN IT OFF - that is not the case with this continual exchange of personal information with Microsoft.

    If it was not about privacy - then why is it necessary to agree to that updated privacy policy which essentially approves of Microsoft's policy to gather all sorts of information, report it to Microsoft, and remove most if not all limitation as to what Microsoft can do with said information.? If one has the ability to "opt out" how is this accomplished?
  16. skynet

    skynet Moderator Moderator

    Well, there's a lot of tutorials on youtube on how to disable every kind of Win10 update.
    You can type Services.msc and disable Windows Update.


    Are you aware of Spectre and Meltdown major issue ?
    My advice is at least to install last fixes then disable windows update afterthat if you want. Keeping a such security hole in your Lan is a major security risk for all your datas, including your passwords.
  17. Joe Shuster

    Joe Shuster New Member

    I don't understand.

    Why did the update run better with all your applications uninstalled? And if you have to uninstall all your applications to get the update to run, then why not just do a full install of (up-to-date) Windows? Is the download easier or smaller?

    Either way you need to reinstall all your apps and data.

    Joe
  18. skynet

    skynet Moderator Moderator

    Because there just enough space to install this big update. When you update, Windows keeps old windows version into a folder named Windows.old
  19. klapa

    klapa Member

    Well the above posts might be jumbled so I will point out that - indeed - I DID disable the update service, as shown in the services.msc list, and that was how I had been running from May 2017 till ~November 2017. At that time - both for myself and apparently many others (one of which is quoted above) Windows found a way to RE-ENABLE the update service and then install the user-space program "Windows 10 Update Assistant" - this program which COULD NOT BE UNISTALLED!

    The ONLY way I was able to recover from this situation was to reset back to the original image I made and use the link Villa posted to change the OWNERSHIP of the Registry Key for the update service. This is a new wrinkle in the registry which allows these remote apps to control the updates regardless of the users setting.

    Imagine that - the OWNER and BUYER of the computer, the system administrator, DOES NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO CHANGE THE REGISTRY KEY without taking these extreme and undocumented steps!!

    The REAL POINT here being that it should be the USERS DECISION whether or not to allow Microsoft or anyone to communicate with my computer if I PAID for the software, but that is NOT the case with the "home" edition of Windows 10.

    As said - where this is going is the route Microsoft has taken with the Office Suite - Windows will ONLY be available as a "subscription" and you will never be able to "pay for it". All the while, Microsoft will have Carte Blanche to track you and siphon your personal information by forcing you to sign that ridiculous "privacy" agreement that comes with the creators update.

    As long as I'm forced to use Windows 10 to use this computer, I will take my chances to maintain my own security. Spectre and Meltdown? Reminds me of "Y2K".

    Many people here only want a video player and don't need these useless updates.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  20. skynet

    skynet Moderator Moderator

    I totally agree with you !
    We should choose if we want upgrades or not.

    I just read this :

    Note: Blocking the upgrade by modifying the registry no longer works for Windows 10 1703 to 1709 o_O

    I updated all my X86 Minix boxes to 1709 and disabled all spies but if i find something else to block updates i will post here.